Mormons?

[silversolitaire]

Be advised, if you are a Mormon, don't read this. I'll probably offend you. However, if you can discuss your belief without getting all heated up, I'd love to talk to you. In all honesty. I may be cynical, but I'd absolutely love to talk to a Mormon who can answer even bluntest questions.

I was discussing Mormon religion with my aunt two days ago and today she gave me a copy of the Book of Mormon which she had been given some time ago. I looked at it a bit and I was very sceptical about it all. There's some guy, Joseph Smith, who claims to have had a vision of Jesus AND God (!!) who advised him not to join any existing church for now and later he had a vision of the angel Moroni (why aren't they called Morons? Old joke, I know...) who presented him with a bunch of golden plates with some form of inspired Egyptian on it and two stones that should help him translate the words. The existence of these plates is testified by 8 witnesses (who just so happen to be relatives of Joseph...). Anyway, Smith did as told, then returned the plates to the Angel who conveniently disappeared with them (-.-;). Now they've got an extra part of the Bible which completely reforms most of what the church has taught before.

So, naturally I got interested and did some research. First I read some biographies of Joseph Smith. I learnt he was killed at a very early age. They called him martyr, him and his brother. I figured he had died for his faith and was impressed. I was wondering, if he really believed in it so much, maybe it could be true? So, I read some more, trying to find some more detailed information. Strangely enough, the official website of the Latter Day Saints provided no information whatsoever about why he was killed. Odd. Google helped. I found some detailed biographies and read them.

Here some quotes:

"When Isaac asked to see the golden plates, Joseph refused permission. Joseph said that, if anyone besides himself looked at the golden plates, it would mean instant death for the person."

Uhm... how were the witnesses able to testify then?

"Although Emma continued to live with Joseph and bear him children, a problem arose between them in the 1830's which was never resolved.

That problem was Joseph's pursuit of other women. Ever since Joseph had founded the Mormon church, his status as a prophet had brought him the adoration of his followers, including many attractive women. Seducing Mormon women was easy for him, and was apparently irresistible to him."

Emma is his wife, btw. So, basically, he was a goodlooking, powerful bastard and used his position to get other women into bed, hm? And his wife didn't agree. Bummer.

"There is evidence that Joseph started to think about making plural marriage a moral practice within his church as early as 1831, one year after the church was founded."

Ooooh, so HE thought about it? Nifty! Make up your own religion, then add whatever is comfortable, eh?

"Meanwhile, although Joseph had not announced God's sanction of plural marriage to the entire church, Joseph himself was practising it. He proposed what he called "celestial" marriage to a number of women, some of whom were already legally married to other men. Joseph considered celestial marriages to be on a higher plane than earthly marriages, lasting forever, and taking precedence over mundane marriages.

Only polygamy - the custom of one man taking multiple wives was sanctioned. Women were not allowed to have more than one husband. Joseph taught that a woman's possibility of entering heaven depended largely on the worthiness of her husband, rather than on her own worthiness."

>_< ! He just made it up! It's so obvious! He wanted to get more women, so he just frigging made it up! When did God ever say anything about that? If he did, why didn't he mention it before? Hm???

And this is why he was killed, btw. Some men whose wives he married bought a press and published a pamphlet about him. Enraged, Smith ordered the press to be destroyed, which resulted in him being arrested for violation of the First Amendment. He was thrown into jail where he was lynched by a masked mob. Quote:

"Calling out, "Oh, my God!" Joseph fell to the ground. He was still alive when he hit the earth. Vigilantes standing over him put several more shots into him, ending his life at age thirty-eight."

How truly religious... -.-;;; When his wife saw his dead body, she called out "Oh Joseph, Joseph, they have killed you at last." What an odd thing to say...

This is sad. I mean, maybe he DID have a vision and all, but he later abused them by making up his own shit! His poor wife!

"He might have God's permission to sleep with other women, but he would never get her permission. She begged him to renounce the new doctrine."

There she was, supporting him for years, writing down what he dictated when he was "translating" the plates, standing by his side through all the abuse and hatred, and then she asks him to renounce something that could have come directly from God's mouth? I doubt that. How very sad...

Then I read on, another essay:

"The majority of Smith's wives were younger than he, and one-third were between fourteen and twenty years of age. Another third were already married, and some of the husbands served as witnesses at their own wife's polyandrous wedding. In addition, some of the wives hinted that they bore Smith children--most notably Sylvia Sessions's daughter Josephine--although the children carried their stepfather's surname. "

Lovely, isn't it? So, in the end he's just a selfish jerk who couldn't keep his dick in his pants. Oh well...

Comments

[andro-chan.livejournal.com]

That's....increadibly funny. At least to me, I don't really have much faith in religions.(The who handles them part and what they do mostly , I don't have a problem with people believing in things) But I'm not really surprised. "Absolute power corrupts all." I just feel sort of pity for his wife. Divorce was huge no-no back then, so she must have felt increadibly trapped..

[zyre.livejournal.com]

Heh, dude. I so know. I grew up surrounded by Mormons, and it's just - well, I hate to say it, but a shitty ass religion. It breeds ignorance and hatred and belittles women - it's just awful. Eck. *shudders*

Hey Silver! ^_^

[rukiyo.livejournal.com]

That was an interesting read. Funny as well. If Joseph _did_ have a vision, it's sad to say that the idea of being "special," "unique" etc, prolly got to his head. That and the fact that there were young women to be had! Still sad though, how his "translations" of his religion seems to benefit him a lot and not the people close to him. Maybe we should be thankful the man died young so that he didn't add more lovely suggestions/rules/practices. Hey, who knows eh? Maybe his early death had been all planned by God. *grin*

Not a Mormon, but skeptical of your sources

[cursedcassandra.livejournal.com]

I'm wondering where you found your biographies on Joseph Smith...they sound as biased as the LDS versions, except in a very different direction. Can you cite your sources instead of just quoting portions of them? Thanks.
As for the religion, I grew up around Mormons and found that there were a lot of positive aspects to their community and some interesting parts of their theology that I found more intriguing and compassionate than mainstream Christianity. *shrugs*
As for the faith, is it any more odd than any other religion? Why are golden plates any weirder than water into wine? Walking on water? etc. And as for contradictions...find me a religion that isn't fraught with them.
You may have some valid arguments about Mormonism but I haven't seen them. You're sources seem suspect and it sounds as though you're just picking on Mormonism for personal reasons (perhaps problems with the aunt?). *shrugs* It's not very convincing as it stands.
Anyways, I'd be interested to see where you gleaned your information.
Thanks.

Re: Not a Mormon, but skeptical of your sources

[silversolitaire.livejournal.com]

You want the sources? Sure... if I can reconstruct them. I wasn't very academic in my research last night, I must admit, so forgive me if I can't name them all. First of all, let me tell you that the biography I read wasn't biased. What I wrote here is my personal interpretation. It does sound rather fishy in many aspects, if you ask me. And also, it wasn't just one, I browsed several websites. And I'm not done yet. I'm gonna order a couple of books from the library next week that hopefully will present the facts objectively. Anyway, here's one book: Compton, Todd. In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith. And one of the biographies I read was on this website: http://www.lds-mormon.com/jsmith.shtml.

As for the contradictions in other religions, namely various Christian sub-groups, oh, I agree with you. Totally. I'm a Unitarian and religious sceptic by default. I'll pick on every religion, in a dissecting way. Fact is, I totally think it's possible that Joseph Smith had visions. The sad thing I see in this is that he used it to gain power for himself. There's a reason why prophets shouldn't harvest the fruits of their visions, IMO. At least, if they have such a westernized mind-set as Christian cultures tend to have.

My aunt, btw, is a stern Christian. She knows next to nothing about Mormons, just had a copy of the book lying around. That's why I started researching. And I've just started, yes.

Btw, I'm not insulting Mormonism. At least I don't think I did. I just have my doubts whether Joseph Smith was such a blessed being as some people seem to think or whether he just tried to gain a personal advantage. On the other hand, of course, it doesn't matter if something good origined out of someone less than holy, does it? Let's face it, Jesus wasn't what the Bible would like to make him to be either. Who was he? God's son? A revolutionist who fought against the Romans and was executioned like a common criminal? Maybe the historical Jesus was, but personally I make a difference between historical people and mystical ones. The Bible itself is full of flaws, as everybody knows. They all are.

I won't lie. I don't know any Mormons personally. I wish I did, honestly. But there are some things I'm seeing that I don't like or agree with, and I'm definitely trying to find out both sides. ^.^

[silversolitaire.livejournal.com]

I really don't know any Mormons in person. The first contact I had with them was two years ago on some market square. I just know what I hear in the news and all. I'm willing to see good points, but the anti-feministic stance so far really infuriates me.

[silversolitaire.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know what you mean. This must be bad, when you marry someone and in the middle of it he changes his religion and begins doing polygamy and all o.o; Very odd. That's the main problem I have with them, really. Aside from having an extra bit of the Bible, just produced out of their sleeves.

Re: Hey Silver! ^_^

[silversolitaire.livejournal.com]

That's exactly my point. I'm not saying it's totally out of the question that God might have given visions to people and that it might actually mean something. But it's just so obvious how he was corrupted by his power and made his own little kingdom. I don't wish death upon anyone, but yeah, who knows what else he would have come up with? And according to his own words God said he's guard him and all. So why did he die in such a fashion? I can only imagine that God thought he did a shitty job... How very sad.

[self-proclaimed.livejournal.com]

::blinks:: I had no idea about any of that. *Very* interesting. Talk about trying to be religious and fucking up... I can't imagine how a person could think that they could justify something in the name of God solely for their own purposes. >_

Re: Not a Mormon, but skeptical of your sources

[cursedcassandra.livejournal.com]

Thanks for replying and to sending me to one of your sources--I appreciate that. Currently reading the website.
I'll be interested to see how the rest of your study goes...I'll keep my eye out for the follow-up. :)