silversolitaire | Question about the US law system:

I think it personally has nothing to do with "law" and everything to do with the media. That sniper case had SO much coverage...because it really was a big deal. It had one of the if not the most major highway in the US gripped in terror. And everyone knows how big "terror" is these days. So. The "powers" that be pushed for justice. I don't even think McVeigh had that fast of a turnaround...and of course the minority groups are going to be screaming racism... which could be true.

America...such a wacky place.

I think it personally has nothing to do with "law" and everything to do with the media.

bingo. same thing with bombing and other suspects - people want something done now and not later, thanks to the media coverage. it's funny how people are quick to jump at capital punishment for a sniper, but rapists/murderers often only receive life sentences because of the simple fact that their case wasn't covered widely by the media.

it's stupid. i say we stick to our automatic first appeal* and anyone convicted with DNA evidence of murder gets zapped/put to sleep/whatever. but then, i don't regard human life as any more important than any other animal on the planet, so my view on what should be done with those who kill their own kind is a bit skewed.

funny part? if each murderer was convicted of killing their victim and eating parts of the body, there'd be a lot more people on death row.

*any criminal sentenced to death automatically has their case appealed once; the 10+ years they wait is often simply appealing their case again and again. it's such a waste of tax money.

(this is the new improved version without retardedness LOL)

I don't agree at all on the "zapping immediately" bit. I'm 100% against death penalty. With no exceptions. I'm aware of the automatic appeal and the costs which just makes it all the more absurd. Everything about death penalty is ridiculously expensive. One Death Row is three times more expensive that jailing someone for life. What the US needs it so revise their law system, punish other offenses differently and without jail time (such as minor theft offenses and other money relates crimes) and jail those who really should be locked away.

But yeah, the media hype makes it a lot easier for juries / courts to dish out death penalty. However, you sound like it's a bad thing it's not given more often. I know that's what you mean because you said similar things before. It's not right for the State to kill people. It only makes it worse when they succumb to the media hype. And to make matters worse most death row candidates aren't aren't that cut and dry case you're talking about, but the circumstances are more than shady. Which is the most important counter argument. That, and the obvious racism involved.

how is it obvious racism when more white people than black are killed? the ratio of black people who are convicted of violent crimes to the number of white people is a HELL of a lot higher than the ratio of whites to blacks sentenced to death, which is 1:1. i'd say the only way it's racist is judges are afraid of being called racist by giving black people (or any other minority) the death penalty.

so far as the cannibalism comment - cannibalism is the only thing i can think of that will offend pretty much everyone who hears about it to the point of them being totally disgusted by whoever did it. it's worse than rape or murder in its own way, because those are things we've been heavily desensitized to.

since the mid 70's, i can't remember the name of the case, there hasn't been a single wrong execution made. the automatic appeal gets wrongly convicted people freed. there are some cases where people will say things are shady, but can you prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt? DNA evidence tends to kill any wrongful convictions, too.

yeah, i think it's a good thing. we're the only species on the planet (and yes, we are a species just like EVERYTHING ELSE) which acts the way we do, and this is both good and bad. you don't see goats raping and killing their own kind, or eating the bodies of their own kind. why do we do it? are we smarter than goats, because we have the capacity to do that? i don't think so... it's good that the death penalty exists.

i'd rather not have murderers in prison, where they can easily escape thanks to the stupidity of others (http://www.ajc.com/news/content/metro/atlanta/0603/27jail.html) and commit more crimes. it'd be nice if we lived in a utopia where prison meant no possibility of escape, but we don't and it's far too easy to escape from prison when one isn't a high-profile criminal (who gets the death penalty anyway)

I don't know where you get your numbers but they're skewed. Since the 70s alone there have been over 100 people who have been released from death row because there innocence has been proven. Can you imagine the number of people that were innocent and executed and nobody found out about it just because nobody asked any questions?

Since 1977 there have been an overwhelming 80% of black people who have been executed for crimes against white people even though 50% of all homocide victims make up black people. More often than not a black defendant has to face an all white jury. Statistic say that a black person has a considerably higher chance to receive a death sentence than a white person. All of this is racism.

Also, I'm not sure why you keep stressing that the human species is a species as if it was an outrageous thing to say. It's a plain and simple fact o.o. And of course other species also commit deeds such as rape, cannibalism and murder. The only difference is that the human race has moral implications connected to these deeds. Nobody would call the fact that a lion kills the cubs of his predecessor murder, whereas among humans this would create quite a fuss, naturally. Or the fact that a certain kind of male bug "rapes" another male in order to insert his semen into him so that his genes are going to be spread next time he mates. Nobody would consider these crimes and barbarous behavior, but that's simply because they're animals. You can say what you want, but even though the human race is clearly just another species on this planet there's still a quite significant difference between us and even the most intelligent species of animals. So yes, we expect each other to stick to certain rules of civilization (and that's just our culture. In others cannibalism and sanctioned rape is a common practice). However, and I'm sure you've heard the arguments before, there's little civilization in showing that something is wrong by doing the same thing all over. It's just not very smart.

Since the 70s alone there have been over 100 people who have been released from death row because there innocence has been proven

yes, released and not executed because of the auto-appeal. thats why it should stay :P

from the Bureau of Justice statistics (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cp.htm)...

Of persons executed in 2002:
-- 53 were white
-- 18 were black

how the HELL is that racist?

Of persons under sentence of death in 2001:
-- 1,931 were white
-- 1,554 were black
-- 27 were American Indian
-- 33 were Asian
-- 12 were of unknown race.

how is it possible for statistics to say a black person has a higher chance of receieving a death sentence, when there are almost 400 more white people (closer to 500 if you just say people of other races) who are currently under sentence of death? i havent been able to find statistics on people who commit violent crimes by race (other than hispanic, wtf?) but i think i remember from the presentation i had to give on capital punishment, that more black people are convicted of murder than whites... something like 56% of violent crimes are commited by blacks as opposed to other races.

and before you say anything about population reflecting the number of people on death row--a LOT of hispanics are convicted of violent crimes, but according to that census there are either only a few (12, other) or none on death row. capital punishment isn't racist... it just depends on where you live. if you're in texas, hell yes, you have a high chance of getting it. anywhere else.. *shrug* not really.

i wouldn't be so for it if they'd reform the prison system and quit making my tax dollars pay for 8 appeals, when they should only receive the first one that tends to free anyone who was wrongly convicted. if the prison system was self-sufficent and people in prison didn't live better than people on the streets, i might give a shit. but until homeless people no longer freeze to death when they could be happy in a warm cell, sitting on their ass and doing nothing... i'm for it.

people sitting in prison and being encouraged to sit in prison because there's no deterent. you dont have to work for anything. if one had to work to grow food or do chain gang type stuff, people would be less willing to commit crimes. i could go on and on about how the prison system SHOULD be. changing it to make prisoners support themselves would be about as radical as legalizing drugs, because people scream "INHUMANE" because the prisoners have to work 10 hours a day, or scream "DANGERDANGERDANGER" because the prisoners have to have shovels and other sharp things in order to cultivate. on a national level it isn't going to happen in my lifetime, but i love the small prisons who're already doing it as much as they can.

the other thing is, do you think the people that they murdered were guilty of something? they probably weren't... why should we have mercy on them when they don't have mercy on others? damn those morals.

okay, let's go over a few statistics, shall we? Firstly, you're right about your 2002 statistics. Well mostly. 18 black, 46 white, 6 latino, 1 other.

But let's step back a bit. I tracked down statistics on death penalty going back to 1977. Since then, 310 blacks were excecuted and 513 whites were excecuted. Interesting data. Makes it sound like you're more right. Oh, but then I cross referenced the victims.

Of the black murderers, their victims were as follows:
192 white victims, 105 black victims

Of the white murderers, their victims were surprisingly:
18 black victims, 492 white victims

Gee, white people just can't get along.

Ah, statistics statsitics. We could go round and round all day with them. The only way to fully balance it out is to know all cases that could justify a death sentence (murders, rapes, whatever it is that justifies it), and then compare the numbers who weren't considered for death sentence to those who were. Track down those numbers and we'll talk statistics more, but without that it's a deadend to argue at. Who knows, maybe white people just don't kill black people as much as they kill each other?

Taking a break from those statistics, it's a known fact that between the trial, appeals, and excecution, death sentences cost a lot more to carry out than lifetime in prison. If the money spent on death penalty cases (wether convicted and sentenced or found innocent or even convicted then only sentenced to life) was to be spent on building and maintaining a prison specifically for these people, it would save taxpayers a huge sum of money.

Oh, and one thing about your auto-appeal. That's not true. There are many cases where the first appeal fails and the person is later found innocent. With a single auto-appeal all of these situations would have an innocent person killed only to find the person innocent later, or not at all.

The fact is, society isn't perfect. And since we're not, we can't properly utilize the death penalty. Even if we were perfect, we'd most likely have developed a better system than the death penalty anyhow.

being that we aren't perfect, why do we worry about appeals and making sure people are guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt? honestly, i dont care if an innocent person is killed on death row and karma will probably come to haunt me with that statement. innocent people are murdered... it's all stupid.

but then, if we lived in a perfect society we wouldn't even have crime.

Tom pretty much said what I would have said, so I'll leave it at that.

I think it's pointless to discuss about whether we have or don't have or should have or going to have a perfect society. What we do have is problems that need to be dealt with.

What I would like to know though is why you want to see people who have committed bad crimes to be executed but at the same time don't care if innocent people get killed as well. That's kinda paradox, isn't it?

Or, as Marilyn Manson put it, "Let's just kill everyone and let your God sort them out."

someone who is convicted wrongly of murder can't be TOTALLY innocent. they wouldn't have hung around with other suspects, etc. it just doesn't happen, a totally innocent person being convicted of murder nowadays. anyone who is convicted is guilty enough to be executed, in my opinion. let their god sort out their fate; i'm happier not having one more guilty person alive.

i am a very bitter little girl, yes.

I remember my surprise when McVeigh was executed so fast. What was it, four years or so? This is just so wrong... it shouldn't be that way. But it is. I feared it wasn't so but it is. I was wondering if it perhaps was because he pleaded guilty or something, but he didn't. Apparently he's still denying any involvement. IMO any rushed sentence like that is wrong unless you found them with the smoking gun in their hands. And even then. I just can't find any justification for death penalty... Bleh. This is just very upsetting for me.

Except McVeigh got it so fast cause he waived all his appeals and said kill me asap. I am split on the death penalty but I don't think we should give it to someone who wants it.

I think nobody should receive death penalty, period. But yeah, those who want it ASAP obviously don't care about life and what happens to them anymore. That makes it so much easier for screwed up individuals to just say "Fuck you all" and take a bunch of people with them. IMO letting people rot in jail forever and think about what they've done with their life and how much they screwed up is so much worse a punishment than just give them back to the eternal cycle. That's just a cop out.

I agree as long as they are in Max security facilities... you know, in the cell 23 hours a day and only out for 15 minutes to shower and 45 minutes of solitary recreation. General population prisons are too social and they get too much to do to take thier mind off of thier crimes.

*agrees with previous comments made about fear and the media's influence on law* XP Damned hypocritical country sometimes.

It really shouldn't be that way >_<;;. I thought it was the hype, but I hoped it wasn't. It's just so wrong...

I will never understand how an society that calls itself civilized can support a legal system that has people killed in the name of the law.

Me neither. I've just discussed this the past hour and I just feel sick and upset. I guess I can't discuss this normally. It's just wrong and there's no argument I can accept in favor of Death Penalty or in improvement of it or whatever. I just can't, because it's wrong and I don't see how people can't realize this.

I know what you mean. Like you, I cannot understand how killing a person would be right, no matter the circumstances. I do understand if, say, a parent of a child that's been murdered go out to track the killer down and shoot them in blind rage. But I cannot see how the state as an institution abandons its "above all" stance to adopt an "an eye for an eye" policy.

I get tired, debating and knowing the statistics at one level that say I'm right and it should end, and having to repeat them ad nauseum to people who don't want to listen, when I simply know that under no circumstance is murder (and all taking of human life, including war and d.p., by another human, is a form of murder) right, deep within.

I have but a few true religious convictions. This is one.

*nods* One of my true convictions is that death isn't a punishment. Sure, I don't want to die now and a lot of people don't and they shouldn't and no one should make anyone die, but in the end death is just the return to the eternal cycle and either you go to a better place or you reenter the cycle or whatever is going to happen. A lot of people think that when you're against the DP you're immediately a tree-hugging hippie quack who wants to release all criminals back into society with a shoulder slap. But that's not true at all. I WANT to see people who've committed heinous crimes punished. But it has to be the right punishment and it mustn't violate the basic rules of morality and civilization. IMO it's so much worse to rot in jail and regret how much you've fucked up your life.

i'm not sure, but i know at least in the McVeigh case, he waived all appeals. that moves up the execution by more than a few years!! when they fight it with appeals and new trials, that slows it down and it can take many years, sometimes decades.

many times, like in the case of McVeigh, they know the evidence is so overwhelming that they no longer wish to fight, or live. maybe that is the case with this "sniper" case. i'm not sure or clear on details. but normally that is the way it works. in Ted Bundy and Aileen Wournous [the movie Monster was about her] cases they both stop fighting appeals after a while and accepted their "fate" if i'm not mistaken.

and yeah, our legal system will never change as long as we have the same government we have now. it's just not possible in this day and age for people to let people who've commited heinous crimes sit for decades in a cushy prison with meals and a dry place to sleep. i agree with the death penalty in certain circumstances, such as serial murder, child murder, serial rapists and molesters. for me it really is a question of how serious and major the crime is. some people just don't deserve to live, even being "punished" by being locked away. perfect example: Charles Manson. he has thrived the last 35 years in prison. he literally has a FAN CLUB! and he ruthlessly ordered murders of innocent people he didn't even know.

anyway, that is my opinion!!!

i'll try to find out more about this sniper thing and the reason the execution is so quick. it's very, very rare in this country to be scheduled that quickly, many times the actuality takes months, years or even decades.

:)
xoxo

I know the sniper still denies all involvement even though he was basically caught red handed. So I don't think he'll waive appeals and all when he thinks in his screwed up mind that he hasn't done anything wrong.

I can see your point, I really do, but I just can't accept any argument in favor of death penalty. I'm sorry. Even though I highly respect you as a person and your opinion there's nothing I can agree to that is in favor of death penalty. From what I hear you oppose the fact that people who have committed heinous crimes get a "cushy prison with meals and a dry place to sleep". Well, wouldn't that be a place to make a change? I agree with you, people who disrespected life and the rights of others have lost a good portion of their own rights. BUT, you can never lose your right to live. Not when you live in a culture that wants to call itself civilized. However, nobody says we have to treat them like First Class inmates. As long as a basic standard is maintained that allows them to keep their human dignity I'd say strip them of all the priviledges other people have. They don't need to have a cozy cell with TV and posters and a PS2 or whatever. And as for the fanclub thing, there are ways to stop that, too. They screen the letters anyway. They might as well block those. People shouldn't glorify killers and rapists.

That's one of the main problems I have with pro-DP people. They just don't see any options. They just "scream for blood" and act as if DP is the only proper punishment for someone who did a horrible thing whereas IMO I think it's a lot worse to make someone rot in jail for the rest of his life and think about what he's done and regret it over and over again when he wants to do things and can't and is locked away and bored and depressed. THAT is the right punishment for these people.

yeah, i see your point to a point. :D but i've been attacked at knife point in my own home. by someone who had a rap sheet a mile thick and had been committing rape, assualt with a deadly weapon, battery, attempted murder, etc etc. so i would have liked to see that man never even have had the chance to ever attack me. i was extremely lucky i knew how to defend myself and he was caught red-handed. they pled him down and dropped a few charges for a lesser sentence to avoid a trial. you don't want me to go there with how i feel about America's justice system!!! *LOL* that man has three square meals a day, exercise and a warm, dry, clean place to live until he finally died (of natural causes i believe). he was in his mid-late 50's when he attacked me in 1989. he'd been committing major felonies since he was THIRTEEN!!!! i even heard that he killed someone. and somehow, he kept getting paroled and time off for "good behavior."

so yeah, i see the point you feel it's uncivilized and inhumane. in most cases, i wholeheartedly agree. most of the people put to the death penalty are of color and poor. anyone with money, or someone "white" rarely seems to get the needle stuck to 'em. which is a whole 'nother story. :)

i think our justice system is completely snail paced and needs a massive cleaning out and overhaul. but no one wants to pay for that. no one is willing to pay for more public defenders, district attorneys, judges and better prisons. we are a greedy, snotty bunch here in this country. we don't believe what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Question about the US law system:

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nods

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